Dr Garrett E Eriksen (00:00)
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Conservation Station, a conservation focused podcast by the Cango Wildlife Ranch in partnership with the Cheetah Preservation Foundation and Wild Animal Volunteers. I am your host, Dr. Garrett Eriksen Thank you so much for joining us. Today is our very first episode. So very excited. And we're going to be talking about something that I think, you know, obviously touches at the heart of our podcast, which is conservation. And I think there's nothing better when you start a podcast like this to kind of break down the topic that you're mostly going to be focusing about. So obviously conservation is going to be our, our primary theme under which most of our topics are going to be discussed.

But I think it would be a great idea to kind of really lay out our definitions and our understandings of what conservation is. So moving forward, we just are all on the same page in that way. So we're going to be looking at conservation in theory and practice, its significance today, a little bit of the history of it as well. And definitely as we are an education focused podcast, we want to focus on what education can do to raise awareness in the public sphere and other avenues.

Mike Denison (00:47)
you

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (01:07)
So yes, I think that'll be a first, that'll be a great first episode, I think. And who better to help us unravel all this than Mike Dennison from WESSA. Hi, Mike. Good to have you with us.

Mike Denison (01:19)
Hi, Garrett.

Really good to be here. Thanks for inviting me on, especially given it's your first podcast. Pretty excited.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (01:28)
Yeah, you know, I I'm deviating from my notes a bit here, just on a personal note, the WESSA logo. I've known that logo my entire life. I know your organization is like almost a hundred years old at this point. In fact, I think in two years time is your a hundred year anniversary, something like that. And I've seen that logo around, obviously, you know, I grew up in a conservation household and in a wildlife facility. So.

There've been books and other things around and conferences and I've just seen the logo since forever. So when I was coming up with the podcast, I was like, you know, I think first episode, I definitely need to speak to WESSA So I'm very happy that you guys agreed. Yeah. So, okay. Mike, just to introduce you to everyone else and please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm just running off the old Google here. So you are the Senior Program Manager at WESSA and WESSA is the Wildlife and Environmental Society of South Africa.

WESSA is basically very well known as a leader in South African conservation. They are especially focused on species preservation and coastal management. They are very well known locally and globally for the work that they do, very well respected. Founded more or less 1926. I mean, I think there was earlier even in the late 1800s, but I think officially 1926. And your mission logo, sorry, your mission and your logo is "People Caring for the Earth".

Mike Denison (02:42)
That's correct. Yes.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (02:50)
which I think nice simple and it speaks volumes. Other things you guys are known for, fostering ecotourism, community engagement and balancing conservation and social responsibility. Some key initiatives, you've got eco schools, which I really want to talk about a bit later. You got about 500,000 learners in those eco schools, which is just so cool. The Blue Flag program, which encourages high environment standards for beaches.

I used to bodyboard when I was younger, so I'm very on board for that one. And advocacy on biodiversity, climate and pollution. Have I got all that right?

Mike Denison (03:29)
Yeah, I think that's a good entry point. One of the challenges with WESSA is that we've actually got a very broad portfolio of work, given we've been around for a long time. But I think as we go through the next hour or so, I'll be able to show how WESSA has changed and different aspects or priorities have come in. And we've reshaped our thinking in terms of how we bring value as a conservation NGO into South Africa.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (03:57)
Mmm.

Mike Denison (03:59)
But I think really in a nutshell is it's that notion of people caring for the earth and we're a very people-centered conservation organization.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (04:11)
That's really at the heart of it, isn't it? Yeah.

Mike Denison (04:11)
The

behind conservation is sadly, worryingly, excitingly situated in how we as human beings function on the planet.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (04:27)
Hmm. I guess that's a, with a lot of things, right? We're the, with the start and end of our own problems. So, and, we are the most successful animal on the planet and we have a massive impact on, our environment. we're just lucky that we're also capable of reflecting on our actions and hopefully doing, you know, the proper and right thing about it and the responsible things. which is again, where organizations like yours and

Mike Denison (04:33)
Mm. Mm.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (04:53)
I would say even can go to some degree step in to help people realize this. I mean, it's yeah, like I said, it's fantastic. I've heard about WESSA for ages. I'm pretty sure when I was in school as well, you guys did a lot of outreach there. So I think you guys always in the background. I'm sure if people showed your logo around, people are like, yeah, now I remember that. But no, that's great. That's great. you know, WESSA being such a, I want to say ubiquitous.

organization, as you said, broad spectrum, got your fingers in many pies, all over the country. Do you obviously it's, know, South Africa is in the name, but do you also expand yourself outside the borders much you just cross border operations?

Mike Denison (05:37)
Our core focus is largely South Africa. However, over the years we've operated a fair amount outside our borders and that's across kind of the renewable energy space. A lot of youth work that was looking at youth mobility, working with Tanzania, Benin, Germany.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (05:52)
Mmm.

Mike Denison (06:02)
more recently with some of the Pangolin work that we're supporting or involved with. It's being driven by the IUCN, but that's looking at developing Southern African regional conservation action plans. So we're working in that space. But I think the bulk of our work is situated within South Africa's borders.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (06:27)
I think now we've got a good basis of what WESSA is and your operations in it. And I mean, you've been there like 23 years, so you've pretty much seen it all, I imagine. In terms of conservation,

Mike Denison (06:40)
Not quite 23 years, but I have been there long time.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (06:41)
now as a, a, okay. It feels like 23 years.

But in terms of conservation as a concept, as a topic, I actually, went onto the IUCN and I found their definition, which is conservation is the responsible management and protection of natural resources and biodiversity.

to ensure their sustainability for future generations while balancing ecological health with human needs. I think that's more or less correct. So, I I agree with that definition. think broadly speaking, and there's obviously multiple stages here, there's multiple interests, but broadly speaking, we're looking at making sure that our surrounding environment, the ecology, the animals that thrive in it, continues to be sustainable, continues to thrive.

because ultimately if that doesn't happen, we are going to suffer for it. So it's a little bit of a selfish take as well because we're related to an environment, we can't live outside of it, we need it as well. But I like to think we want to conserve for conservation's sake as well, just because it's nice to have a good ecology, a good healthy ecology, good healthy environment for animals, regardless of my personal opinion on it.

I'm not going to enjoy running around in the Sahara Desert, but I still want the ecology there to be healthy. It doesn't matter if I like it or not, as long as it's performing its functions, right?

Mike Denison (08:13)
Yeah, and I mean,

you know, we can't divorce the fact that this is one ecosystem. We are part of the ecosystem. We are part of the environment. And for the ecosystem to be healthy, it needs all its parts. So it needs healthy human beings in the same way it needs healthy forests, healthy water.

I mean, think the IUCN definition, yeah, it's clearly, I mean, it's very well thought out and we'd interested to know how much money was spent to get to that point of a really good definition, because that's often one of the contradictions in conservation. But that aside, yeah, so as WESSA, we kind of keep almost as a banner objective in terms of how do we...

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (08:49)
Hmm.

Mike Denison (09:07)
look at challenges, how do we think about solutions, this notion of sustainable utilisation of natural resources. So that can at times put you on the wrong side of a debate, or people perceive you to be on the wrong side of a debate, because we try to look at it from quite a holistic, realistic and inclusive way.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (09:34)
Mm-mm.

Mike Denison (09:35)
And if we, like everything else on the planet, is utilizing the resources it needs to utilise to sustain itself, then we have an ecosystem that really should be functioning effectively, efficiently. There's quite an principle to... sorry. There's quite an important principle called the precautionary principle. You're probably familiar with it. Which one needs to...

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (09:50)
Yes.

Yeah, I-

Mm, no no, go for it.

Mmm. Yes.

Mike Denison (10:05)
rigorously apply in that approach of sustainable utilisation. If we are unsure what the marker for sustainable utilisation is, then we must apply the precautionary principle until we understand what is the sustainable utilisation. And I think that's one of the really big challenges in contemporary, the contemporary planet is

We don't really know where the sustainable ceilings are. We know we're pushing them and have pushed several and we don't apply the proportionate principle.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (10:44)
Yeah, I agree. think it's a lot trickier than people think in terms of how do we set that ceiling almost. We have a situation where different needs from different communities are required. The more rural communities will have more immediate needs of their surroundings than the city communities. City communities, they have the built up infrastructure, they have their water pumped in, their food is driven in.

You know for them as long as there's a sustainable supply chain that's Okay, well as long as there's a constant supply chain, but obviously that puts a lot of pressure Yeah constant. Yeah, whereas the more rural communities are directly reliant on their immediate surroundings a drought in a rural community might mean almost immediate death because they're reliant on the Seasons in and of themselves. There's not a lag if I can say it, know in a in a in a city environment I was in Cape Town when day Zero happened

Mike Denison (11:18)
Constantly.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (11:40)
And that drought was several years in the making. And then we got the result later, whereas the farmers in more rural communities had already been experiencing it more directly. So how much are we taking versus how much do we actually need to take? I always I get frustrated with I got very frustrated with people at the time when we were trying to preserve water quality and water quantity and people were still watering their gardens.

Mike Denison (11:51)
Yes.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (12:09)
you know, it's, it's, but then in their minds, it's important to still maintain a standard of living that makes them happy and healthy in their space. But then it's also versus how much water quality or how much water quantity is available for everyone in the surrounds. and it's again, regardless, you know, moving away from the individual person as well, it's, the largest scope because, when we have a, sustainable ceiling, we say, okay, well, what is

If we started reducing the amount of food available to a city, for example, which food would we reduce? What is the availability? know, will people be upset that they can no longer get their luxuries? And we're a very short, you know, sighted society. A hundred years ago, people, the availability of foods and things, you know, I could right now I could pop down to the store. could get avocados if I want. I've had people telling me stories about their parents and their grandparents who were living in other parts of the world.

didn't even see avocados until like the 1960s or 70s. They weren't, you know, it was a rare treat. Now you can get them everywhere. So obviously to be able to get those, right, there's a huge supply chain involved. There's a lot of farming that goes involved in that. So do we need those avocados everywhere or should we focus on what crops are sustainable and healthy in their particular environment? But then, you know, you start getting into economics, you start going into well,

comparative advantage. I, as a country, South Africa, I'm very good at growing avocados, even though they aren't native. It's cheaper then for it to be grown here and exported than for another country to do the same thing. And then you get economics. And honestly, I'm a historian by trade and economics is inescapable in that kind of regard. And I think it's actually inescapable in conservation as well. At the end of the day, people are only going to change their habits if it's economically viable to do so. And I think that, I think

From what I've read of Wes's projects, that's a lot of where you guys are. Your underline has a lot to do with the economics of the situation and how people are more inclined to make those changes if it will benefit them. And when I say economics, not necessarily monetarily, it's a matter of risk versus reward, resource versus no resource, et cetera.

Mike Denison (14:23)
Yes, and I mean that, if we frame that a different way, you're really talking to kind of quality of life. The risk is that we are utilizing too many resources too fast for our quality of life, that the longer-term implications around quality of life are potentially terrifying.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (14:31)
Mm-mm.

Mike Denison (14:53)
We haven't even begun to deal with some of the dynamics, for example, around climate migration, when massive, massive populations of people are going to have to be moving to new areas in order to survive. So moving out of areas that are just getting too hot to sustain livelihoods or too dry to sustain livelihoods or coastal communities that are...

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (15:03)
Yes.

Mm.

Mike Denison (15:22)
getting lambased by increased frequency of high-level storms. Currently the world can barely tolerate and manage the migration of people for really good reasons, war, famine. And we're going to amplify that number of people. How are we as humans around the world?

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (15:29)
Mm.

Hmm. Famine. Yeah.

Mike Denison (15:51)
going to manage those kinds of spaces, linked, literally linked to conservation, human migration. So I think going off to quality of life is very easily done with one's blinkers on. And it really isn't with foresight of what we're creating and leaving for people we love, our children and their children.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (15:54)
Mm. Mm-mm. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

Hmm. I think we need to, whether we want to or not, because it's going to become a necessity. We need to get more comfortable with having fewer luxuries. I think we can live very good qualities of life by just reducing some of the things, you know, it's, the same talking points. People hear this all the time. Reduce your red meat consumption. you know, mostly buy local. there's a lot of little things you can do. It's just people are unfortunately lazy. Well, I say, unfortunately, it's not a moral failing. This is we've

evolved to be lazy, be energy conservative. We've just, you I think you look through history, we have spent our entire existence trying our hardest to avoid work. You know, we eventually got to a point where we're like, slaves, that's a great idea. Let's get other people to do our work for us. And now we're getting to a point where we want to eventually realize morally apprehensible. Now we want to try and get robots to do it for us. But we've created a system that's top heavy, and we're just not willing to reduce

as a result. whether we want to or not, we're going to have to. And I think, again, it's going to be economics. What's great is what I'm seeing, and I don't know if it's too late or not, but there's a lot of sustainable energy that's coming out. And even Exxon, the big oil companies in that are seeing more and more solar panels and all of that. The renewable energy sources are becoming a lot more economically viable for them. So they're starting to invest in that.

And the more we can shift those big, because it's one thing, know, I, yes, I can go and recycle. can use individual things and all those little things do help because ultimately we're paying the system to continue. But if we can also shift the bigger systems, those will have the bigger impacts, you know, buy less plastic, et cetera.

Mike Denison (17:58)
Yeah,

I think it's imperative, it is imperative for a sustainable planet that can sustain itself is that big particularly, know, big oil, needs to move. Renewables needs to become a high priority to move towards. There's a lot of talk around things like the just energy transition. There's a lot of

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (18:06)
Mm.

The norm.

Mm.

Mike Denison (18:27)
very good activism behind the renewable energy space. But again, one's got to be cognizant that there isn't really a, what's the word, like a golden egg here. know, the race to grow renewables is leading to huge human rights abuses in the Congo. You know, the minerals we need to

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (18:44)
Like a magic bullet. Yeah

Mm.

Mike Denison (18:57)
keep up to production of batteries, of storage. So I'm definitely not advocating that we don't move to renewable energy, but the picture is bigger than just make the shift. It's make the shift, but what are we doing to look what's happening around the world in order to enable that shift to be just? know, just transition in South Africa will have implications on the definition of just in another country.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (19:00)
Mm. Mm.

Yes.

Mike Denison (19:27)
So it's that ecosystem again, you know, how do we appreciate and try and work with this massive ecosystem of change and dynamics and interconnectedness and abuse and so...

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (19:31)
Yeah.

Now, I completely agree. I actually work with a group called the Congolese Civil Society of South Africa. And I do talks with them about once a year when they have symposiums. And a big one is how the Congo is basically paying for the rest of the world's abilities to use their phones and have computers and such, because there are literal children in artisanal minds digging out radioactive elements for us to use. And it's horrible what's going on there. But

As long as we're happy, as long as we can use our phones and connect on our laptops, then we're happy to kind of ignore it. At the same time, I can't get rid of my phone because I need it to be able to do this kind of work and day-to-day living. So what we've been advocating for is not only public awareness, but then pressure from the international community to make those artisanal minds safer and more viable.

Mike Denison (20:30)
Yes.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (20:34)
it's again, it's very complicated as well because we're doing damage to the ecosystem by mining. But then if we reach the renewables, then we are doing less damage overall. it's there's always this I don't think there's ever as you say a magic bullet, there's no perfectly clean system or energy, there's always going to be some kind of damage. It's a case of minimizing the damage, I suppose, and trying to make it as sustainable as possible. It's, you know, smarter people than I will have better answers to that.

Mike Denison (21:00)
Yes, I think yes.

No, does. mean, that's, you know, what is...

not losing sight of justice, real justice, not losing sight of human rights, keeping the, I mean, you've referred to the kind of economics drivers a lot. You know, as there's more justice around how minerals are extracted, your cell phone's gonna go up. How do you keep up with that? So yeah, it's a very complex, very complex.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (21:11)
Mm-mm.

Yeah, it's very, it's very

much like the ecosystem we're realizing it's not a pyramid, but more of a web, even just our ability to do minimal things like that all very interrelated. But let's, let's shift the conversation a little bit then to, I want to talk a bit about animal conservation in particular, because obviously, you know, my background is mostly about animal conservation. Cheetah preservation is a big one.

And, I know you guys also do a lot of, you do a lot of work with, biodiversity, maintaining the conservation of beaches, which I think is a very big one. A lot of people don't realize how important it is to maintain a healthy beach, just for not only the entire coastline, but for the interior of the country as well. or any country for that matter. so yeah, maybe you can just give us a little bit of background of, what you and Wes are perhaps do as far as let's say animal conservation goes and education around that.

Mike Denison (22:30)
Yeah, so I'll take you back to an interesting story, which is actually around, you know, the birth of Wesa, like you said, close to 100 years ago. So the irony in it all is there was a group of hunters and their sable populations, hence the sable logo, their sable populations were declining to a point where they realized they were moving towards a kind of

there was this unsustainable utilisation effectively of sables. And a protection mindset drove them into reconsidering how do we make sure that populations of species don't continue to decline. Excuse me. And that essentially led to Wes's first project.

which culminated in the proclamation of Kruger National Park as South Africa's first large protected area. So while WESSA, obviously we can't directly claim, you know, we were the brainchild to Kruger Park, WESSA emerged out of this group that was very catalytic to what led to the proclamation of Kruger Park. And even Kruger Park, you know, now

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (23:39)
wow, okay.

Hmm.

Mike Denison (24:00)
in 2024, when we sit and we reflect on how Kruger Park was created, as amazing as it is and for all its benefits, there are lot of question marks around how protected areas generally in the world are created. And now conservation is constantly evolving to reflect on itself, to be more just, I suppose, in terms of how it applies itself to protection.

An example is the 30 by 30 initiative where we've got 30 % to land and sea properly protected by 2030. It's very innovative and progressive in how it's going about proclaiming areas, whereas Kruger was mostly put up a fence, protect the fence and look after the animals inside and...

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (24:41)
Mm. Mm.

Yes.

Mike Denison (24:57)
people were generally secondary, too easily second. More recently, WESSA has played quite a strong supportive role in the earlier days around rhino poaching. More recently, we've initiated the WESSA Pangolin Program, which has a particular focus on the Temminck's Pangolin.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (25:01)
Mm. Mm-mm.

Mike Denison (25:26)
So the South African rangeland, but also into our SADC SADC neighboring regions. A lot of energy within the pangolin space is actually going into the conservation planning side of conservation. So it's things like working within the biodiversity management plan development team, working, as I mentioned, supporting a process towards developing a regional action plan, working with landowners.

The largest risk to pangolins in South Africa, so pangolins for those who are unfamiliar with them, are a unique mammal in that they're a scaly mammal. They're regarded as the most trafficked mammal in the world, predominantly for their keratin scales, but they're also very popular on the kind of bushmeat market.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (26:24)
So they're edible and then also their scales

are used for medicine or

Mike Denison (26:26)
Yes,

yes. They're increasingly attributing lots of properties similar to how people attribute incorrect properties to things like rhino horn. So yeah, the majority of the market is not a local market. There is some bushmeat trade in South Africa, but it's predominantly an export market, the illegal trade.

But in South Africa, the bigger risk to pangolins, and we anticipate we have considerably more mortalities on pangolins, is the risk of electric fences. So pangolins' natural reflex when it's in danger is to roll into a ball and it's protected by this incredible layer of keratin scales. Yes, so it rolls up for protection.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (27:19)
like an armadillo.

Mike Denison (27:24)
So

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (27:24)
right.

Mike Denison (27:25)
when it encounters an electric fence, it goes into its protection, which is to roll up and it rolls up around that bottom strand and then dies a very slow and painful death, basically by electrocution. And while we obviously don't know the exact figure, we're now with Dr. Darren Peterson, who's with Endangered Wildlife Trust. He did a lot of

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (27:31)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Mike Denison (27:53)
work into quantifying numbers around electric fences. And he has suggested that the number could be as high as 2,000 pangolins a year are lost as a non-target species on an electric fence.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (28:08)
Hmm.

It reminds me almost of bycatch when it comes to fishing and just so much bycatch.

Mike Denison (28:14)
Exactly.

So that's pangolins. I don't know how many hundred thousand tortoises are killed by that lowest strand. So there's a bit of a groundswell at the moment around how do we move forward. And there's been some quite a lot of experimental work pilot projects trying to find the best solution around the fence problem.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (28:23)
Yes.

Mike Denison (28:43)
Just protecting your bottom strands so they can't touch it also stops them then being able to be mobile. So you run into questions around genetic diversity further down the road because you've now contained and you've prevented movement and that kind of chopping up spaces is not particularly good for biodiversity.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (28:50)
Yeah.

Of course, yeah.

Yeah, I've

read some fascinating studies in that regard, where even botanists have found just because a road has has kept two parts of a forest completely separate. And and you know, people come past and they'll trim the bushes every week or whatever. An entire subspecies of a particular plant has now developed on the other side of the road just by virtue of not being able to propagate with the with the parent species. And I'm sure the same thing is happening with animals who can't now

Mike Denison (29:11)
Yes.

Okay.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (29:33)
mix their diversity. Especially I have a soft spot for tortoises. They're probably one of my favorite animals in the whole world. almost every time I drive, I drive between Oudtshoorn and Cape Town at least about once a month. And I rescue at least about four tortoises minimum each drive. Just walking across the road or stuck in a fence or something while I'm driving. yeah, roads are very convenient for us, but they create such of a...

Mike Denison (29:54)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (30:00)
barrier between things. also these fences, I didn't even really kind of consider it, but it does make sense. All these pieces of land that are completely fenced off, obviously create little capsules or prevent migration. You know, so yeah, it's it's I've heard of places around I don't know if they've done it. But I've heard of initiatives for like, migration corridors, where they just make a space for animals to be able to move back and forth between things. But obviously, again, requires political will requires money requires consent from landowners.

Mike Denison (30:11)
Exactly.

Yes.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (30:28)
and requires security that these same migration quarters aren't then used by people to infiltrate land where they shouldn't be. discussing kind of who shouldn't be on land is a whole separate issue.

Mike Denison (30:37)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's kind

of our current core species focus at the moment. And then through some of our coastal programs, for example, the Western Green Coast Program, Green Coast sites typically choose, well, they choose one of three themes, which makes the coastal site particularly special. And

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (30:54)
Mmm.

Mike Denison (31:12)
species is one of the themes that a site can choose and that would then lead to a monitoring plan and a monitoring regime that is undertaken at that site. So an example would be if we go back, although the Blouberg Nature Reserve are monitoring their habitat, they went through a number of years where their focus was on the African oyster catcher.

which is a bird deserving of protection.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (31:44)
Yes.

All animals are deserving of protection.

get them. I constantly get, I say flack from, from my colleagues and such. I, even though I'm scared of spiders and I don't particularly like certain insects, I will still go out of my way to avoid stepping on an ant. I will, if I have to, even if I have an ant infestation, I'll try and avoid poisons. I will do everything I can to have as least just because I'm inconvenienced shouldn't mean I should, you know, destroy a good portion of an ecosystem.

So same kind of thing. think it doesn't, you know, and that's a problem we do have in conservation where I want to say there's a cute factor. People will, will, are more likely to respond to an animal that they relate to or feel is cute or worth, you know, visually pleasing as opposed to something that might not look nearly as nice, but is as important. I'm sure there are people who I think pangolins are adorable, but I'm sure there are people who think that they're creepy and weird and then they're more.

likely or less likely to get themselves involved because of that same with oyster catchers. know, a of people don't like birds and they would see this oyster catcher and even the name it's not a it's not a cute name like a pangolin, you know, it's an oyster catcher. Some people might not think that's particularly so there's it's it's it's really interesting how this kind of I want to say marketing and optics just around an animal's just existence and its name and its classification.

Mike Denison (32:52)
No.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (33:07)
And even something like the Blouberg Nature Reserve, people will go there and use it as a relaxed spot to walk through and everything. ecotourism is very important, but I think a lot of them just go there for the walk and don't really kind of realize how important something like that or a part that something like that plays in furthering the resilience of locations like that.

Mike Denison (33:29)
Yes. You how much work goes into sustaining that reserve and managing it in a way that it is a healthy environment. it's very easy to not appreciate or not notice that. I mean, that's where the Green Coast Program is quite an interesting approach to conservation. So it's based around the principles of an eco-label.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (33:42)
Exactly.

Mike Denison (34:00)
And there's 13 criteria that the implementing partner, typically we partner with the municipality, adhere to. And those criteria measure them against what is regarded as good environmental management and then the promotion of nature-based or adventure-based ecotourism. And built into the criteria are number of

imperative components, waste management, pollution management, monitoring, environmental education, community participation, all feed into it so that it becomes not just the municipality's responsibility to look after an area, but it's a collaboration between municipality and civil society or civic groups to shoulder that responsibility collectively in order to

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (34:45)
Yes.

Mm.

Mike Denison (34:57)
have the best possible coastal space you can have. And that's kind of quite a strong WESSA approach, I guess.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (35:02)
I that speaks...

Yes. No, I agree. I think that speaks a lot to the education aspect of things because again, it's about helping people realize that they're part of that ecosystem and essentially creating a sense of responsibility. In the same way that you should be responsible for your own living space and your neighborhood and such, it is important to be responsible for the environment around you. And it's difficult. People are living...

difficult lives right now. You know, they barely have time to cook dinner, let alone worry about the beach down the road or even in the other town and what their responsibilities are there. But I think as well that people should realize that the more responsibility we collectively take for these spaces, the easier it gets and the more self-sustaining these situations become, which then also take pressure off of us. A lot of our pressures are because resources are getting scarcer. Conservation is becoming more and more important.

because we're using too much. So if we take social responsibility for these spaces, make them more viable and approachable, it makes our overall life a bit easier to live, I would argue. Even something like the, because some people might go, how would protecting the beach help me get more oranges in the year or something? But a lot of these are related. What happens on the beach in terms of weather.

Mike Denison (36:24)
It is. mean, the probation,

you're driving ecotourism or tourism opportunities, which is directly linked to local economic development and other livelihoods, local cards. you know, those connections that you're talking about where people are disconnected, good conservation work is reconnecting people to understand and appreciate that they're not islands. They, you know, they can't just operate.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (36:30)
Yes.

Exactly. Yes.

Mike Denison (36:54)
on their own and their benefits are integrally linked to the greater benefits that an area can, I guess, can achieve. And it achieves the greatest benefits when it's healthy.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (37:05)
Exactly.

And it's not just those kind of material benefits, it's also our immediate, I want to say emotional benefits. Being out in those spaces is good for us. It makes you feel good. It's healthy for you. It's something that directly benefits you. The more healthy the ecology of a space, even a city. I'm not gonna try and pull the statistics out of my, suck it out of my thumb at the moment, but I have read statistics that are along the lines of cities that...

that remove their parks, depression and aggression and everything start to rise sharply. But the more of those spaces, and it's not just the heat and heat makes people angry. There's a lot of things that come into play when you start removing those green spaces, but the more green spaces, the nicer spaces to live. And I think things like your green coast Management, I think it just ticks all of those boxes. It's about the...

impact the ecology has to the surrounding areas just in terms of the environment, but also in terms of our ability to live there. It impacts the further and wider spaces. It also is spaces that we like to go to. People like to go to the beaches. They want to be there. So if we can protect these places and then have people involved in those protections and understand why they're important, you know, there you go. But my so I think there's a part of the

podcast that I'd like to move to. But yeah, I want to mention that all of these little projects and things that we've been discussing, I would love to have more interviews later with you and discuss them in detail. You know, we're just right now looking at like a broader strokes approach to what conservation is and kind of giving people a feel for some of the projects that are going on and what that means. But I really want to go into them in detail later. But there's something that

Mike Denison (38:46)
Yeah.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (38:56)
This is a part of the episode where I like to kind of go through a news item that's related to our guests and what they do. And we can discuss that a little bit as well, kind of giving you expertise. And I found this news article, which is WESSA challenges South African businesses to rethink their environmental impact. And I'm very big on corporate responsibility. You know, I'm almost a bit of an anarchist.

If it were up to me, was emperor of the world, would diminish, I would destroy all borders. would say everyone's allowed to go everywhere. we must all take responsibility and corporations must pay tax to the point where the CEOs get like a hundred grand, a salary a day at most. So, I, know, anything that makes businesses take more responsibility is always a good thing in my book.

You know, I'm not going to read this article out. You can tell us more a bit about it. So what is it that you're getting businesses to try and do and be involved in?

Mike Denison (39:53)
I mean, it's really the number of different, I guess, of pillars or channels that businesses should be encouraged to rethink. Climate change for many of us, you know, it's a strong belief, it's a reality, and it is an enormous threat to the well-being of people on planet.

Typically corporates are quite high in terms of climate impact and yeah, sponsoring some projects or funding this is...

is to be acknowledged and recognized as a positive contribution, but it really is around a massive internal reflection on how does this industry fundamentally change in order to not be the risk contributor it is to the climate emergency.

And there are number of different ways or different approaches that should be encouraged. Some are just working with and building capacity within the corporate sector to be able to transition themselves towards more climate appropriate practices, technologies. If we look at something like the hotel sector, the tourism sector,

Hotels, hotel chains, which have a fairly high impact, particularly on water.

detergents, you know, the big hotels are running a very complex, tricky business model. And it's not always easy to be adhering to good environmental practices. So I don't know if you're familiar with Green Key. So Green Key is like a stamp of approval that as a hotel management,

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (41:44)
Hmm.

No.

Mike Denison (42:12)
and operations you are adhering. Again, it's criteria based. So are you meeting certain criteria that move you much more towards being sustainable to being of lower impact? So that should be encouraged. we as consumers can encourage corporates.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (42:27)
Hmm.

Mm.

Mike Denison (42:38)
to be more proactive in terms of how they change. So in the hotel case, you use green key hotels when you can. When we go in and we purchase a pack of chicken, for example, and we won't go into the whole background of chicken, I'm talking about the chicken that's made it all the way to the supermarket. It's chicken in styrofoam.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (42:58)
Mm.

Mike Denison (43:07)
individually wrapped in plastic inside the styrofoam with more plastic over it. So particularly in South Africa, we're a long way away from consumer pressure.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (43:08)
Hmm.

Mike Denison (43:22)
forcing producers to change per practice. And you know, one of the approaches that we're adopting with WESSA, so like I mentioned, a green key approach is around making producers or corporates.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (43:26)
Yes. Yeah.

Mike Denison (43:41)
more appreciative of where the impacts are and how they can alter business practices in a way that reduce unnecessary impact. And I think the chicken being wrapped 10 times in a piece of plastic is always a very easy example to relate to. Most consumers get home and it frustrates the hell out of them that this chicken is wrapped and they'll comment on it and they'll throw that all in their bin.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (43:46)
Mm.

Yes.

You

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mike Denison (44:08)
And the next time they go to the supermarket, they'll purchase the same chicken product because they like it.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (44:13)
that yeah, no incentive

then for the for the the chicken manufacturer to change because people are still buying. Yeah, I and I get I think this also again, we're edgy. No, sorry.

Mike Denison (44:20)
Yes. one can go straight. Carry

on. I was going to say one can go straight then to the chicken guys, you know, and you're going, OK, this is this is your chain of events to what the consumer is purchasing. There are better alternatives and, you know, challenging corporates to rethink how and what they're doing. And the argument, you know, it's a chicken example, but.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (44:44)
Mmm. Mmm.

Mike Denison (44:49)
can go into every facet of the business. How much unnecessary travel do they approve within their business practices? Are they optimizing digital platforms and resources that are available to us? So yeah, so that's where we're

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (44:53)
Yes.

Yeah. And I mean, again, I

think this is, I think this is where like individual social responsibility and awareness and education comes in because the corporations aren't going to change their practices short of one of three things happening. Either a government intervention or regulatory body forces them or an organization like yours raises awareness and then the public pressure or people naturally change their habits. And then the corporation decides to start.

investing in what the people want because there's where the profit is. And I would say a fourth thing, on occasion, you'll get certain people in a company that decide to take it forward. And obviously you've always got to be wary of greenwashing. That's a big thing a lot of corporations are accused of. We got to obviously be careful that we don't give accolades to companies that just on the surface seem to be doing.

Mike Denison (45:45)
Yes.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (46:00)
good but actually are just finding a different way of polluting. Woolworths is always a sore contention for me because they did great by banning plastic bags but then they introduced their carry bags, which you think is great except that everyone forgets their carry bags so they're always selling new carry bags and then manufacturing more of those. I always say that Woolworths is making more money off the carry bags than all the other products.

Mike Denison (46:21)
One, two, three.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (46:25)
But then, you know, for example, just here at Kango, we completely banned plastic bags on our facility at all. So if anyone brings anything here, it has to be in a backpack or like a cardboard bag or whichever. And little things like that have reduced our waste completely because, you know, you think, well, how are we using plastic bags and causing waste? But, you know, we bring food in or we put stuff in to throw away and we just generate that extra waste. Now having a space where about 70 plus people who live and work in this area.

Mike Denison (46:26)
Yeah.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (46:55)
not using plastic in their day to day helps a lot little things like that. So if someone at their own corporation or company just started a bit of initiative to just no longer bring plastic bags into into their their workspace, that's already a big difference, you know, 1000s of plastic bags a year, then suddenly missing from that particular space. So, you know, it's up to organizations also up to individuals, I think we all need to pull weight here.

Mike Denison (47:20)
it's

also I mean government you know we should hold government maybe accountable for not always being as don't know if aggressive is the right word here but as proactive as they could be so like you know there's a strong argument in South Africa yeah but we can't just ban plastics jump on a plane and fly to Rwanda when you get out the plane in Rwanda if you've got plastic bags and you they're confiscated

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (47:24)
Yeah.

Yes.

Mike Denison (47:50)
There is no plastic bag. They're just plastic bags. Single use plastics are an absolute minimum to the point of, I think by law, not meant to be. And there are alternatives and people develop alternative behavior quite quickly to compensate for losing their plastic bags. So, I mean, I think...

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (47:51)
Mmm. Mmm. Yeah.

Mike Denison (48:18)
You know, those kinds of things as human beings, we are moving ridiculously slowly. Like rapid change around. Yeah, and we really could achieve rapid change, particularly in the war on plastics. And there's, mean, there are some NGOs and organizations around the world doing phenomenal work. And more scarily, the research they're doing is just, you know, it's mind blowing how...

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (48:24)
We don't want to give up our conveniences.

Yes, I agree.

Mike Denison (48:47)
how we're letting plastic infiltrate the lifeblood of the planet.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (48:55)
And literally our blood, if a lot of the recent studies are true, where we got tons of microplastics in us. So it's something that we have to look at very quickly. And I believe microplastics are even disrupting algae chains and various things like that, which then obviously impact food chains and such. So there's a lot going on there. I would love to continue on that point. But I think we'll have to discuss plastics as well in another thing. We're nearing the end of our time slot here. So I would love to

now move into one of my favorite sections of the podcast where we discuss how people can get involved. Because there's one thing I want in this podcast, not just to listen and learn. Yeah, sure. But I want people to know what they can do, how they can be active. Because I think a big thing is, again, along with the inconveniences and everything, people don't know what is close to me. How can I get involved? What is next door? What is in my neighborhood? What is on my, you know, just on my local chat group? What can I do to be involved?

What we can we lower the barrier for entry to that? So so Mike let's obviously we have international listeners But in terms of at least South Africa and perhaps WESSA what can people do to get involved in local projects and and and organizations and such

Mike Denison (50:12)
So, again, there are a couple of answers there. think one of the real strengths beyond WESSA is WESSA is a membership-based organisation. So we have member groups and friends groups all over the country. Some are absolutely committed to vultures and vulture conservation. Other friends groups might be committed to managing and ensuring the integrity of a local wetland.

Other groups are focused on coastal projects. So anybody can contact WESSA, just through our website. Contact WESSA and then we're a conduit. Okay, so this is where you are, these are your interests. We'd like to link you to that member group or that friends group. We have a number of volunteers, particularly youth volunteers that

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (51:05)
Mm-mm.

Mike Denison (51:12)
unnecessarily members, but they're wanting to be involved in environmental projects from time to time to kind of experience that space. And we have a process called green matching. So they go through an online application, well, not really an application, an online form, and then they get green matched to what would be an appropriate or the kind of project we feel would stimulate them, they'd get benefit from, and they would bring benefit to.

So the membership process or the volunteer process. For schools out there, WESSA implements the Eco-Schools Program, the Young Reporters for the Environment Initiative or program, the Learning About Biodiversity program. And these are all international environmental education initiatives that really help the school integrate environmental education.

into the everyday curriculum. So the work is, you know, it's aligned with the assessment requirements, it's aligned with the curriculum, and it takes the school through a journey of increasingly improving in terms of the school being almost like a commons, sustainability commons in a way. They adopt projects, take on those projects, there's teaching happening, there are practical components.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (52:32)
Hmm

Mike Denison (52:39)
And each year they build on that. And they're acknowledged by receiving a flag, which the school is allowed to fly on. And as you achieve certain milestones through the lifetime, the acknowledgement changes. It's always a flag, but you get different color flags. And so that's a really good one for schools. I mean, think those all go off, study something that really talks to conservation.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (52:48)
that's

Hmm.

Mike Denison (53:09)
Put yourself into the NGO, so... Yes.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (53:10)
So if you're a university student and you want to, you know, get involved and you study something conservation and then get in touch with you guys.

Mike Denison (53:16)
Yeah, and whether

it's WESSA or Endangered Wildlife Trust or Bird Life, we just need far more committed conservationists in South Africa than we currently have. So that's the way.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (53:29)
Mmm.

So if I was an average

regular person, like you said, there's, I suppose three ways there. One is if I was gonna go into university or something along those lines and I can study further and as you say, we have a shortage of dedicated conservationists and researchers who need to go that way. Two, if I'm part of some kind of organization that can join with and become a member, some kind of...

whether it's educational or corporate or anything along those lines or conservation based. But if I was just a regular person who wanted to let's say be involved in the Green Coast program or something like that, do you allow, I want to say the average person to contact you and say, do you need an extra pair of hands to walk the beach or to dig a hole?

Mike Denison (54:20)
Yes, so I mean if you live at one of the registered Green Coast sites, absolutely. And the chance, if you lived in this space, you would know it's a Green Coast site because it's very outreaching in terms of that. I mean another way of being involved for people that are interested in the pangolins, for example, we started what we call the Pangolin Partner Network. So you kind of...

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (54:42)
Yes.

Mike Denison (54:48)
sign up register as a Pangolin partner. You become part of a learning and sharing network. We host different kinds, often virtual events. have Pangolin rehab specialists come in and talking about their experiences with Pangolin conservation. We've had some Pangolin education resource developers presenting. We're going to have quite a well-known wildlife photographer who's particularly passionate about Pangolins doing

doing a photographic presentation in December. We haven't finalized the date, but in December. So, one again, to be a Pangolin Partners, visit the WESSA website. The website's a strong home, which can take you in various directions once you're on it. Pangolin Partners, volunteers, membership.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (55:33)
Yeah.

And I believe I even saw

on, I think it was pangolin.africa, which is the other partner group you work with. They even have a WhatsApp line where you can send sightings of pangolins to track them. I think that's very, very cool. It reminds me of, I think it's iNature. There's a similar app where it also tracks them, something like that. Yes, that's it, that's it, I love that.

Mike Denison (55:47)
Yes.

Great. So it's.

Unnaturalist, yes. Yes, unnaturalist. Yeah, so the Penguin.Africa

WhatsApp group has been very effective in particularly...

Addressing the the trade market so community members WhatsApping anonymously a tip off and then a seizure with sting operation then goes down based on based on the until they can see them. Yep. Absolutely.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (56:17)
course.

Mm.

Right. So eyes open, more eyes, the better, you know, and again, it's not just for pangolins.

think that that you take that approach across the board. You see something, say something. Great. Yeah. Mike is there. Before we wrap up there, any other points you want to make on that?

Mike Denison (56:37)
Correct.

No, Garrett, think, I mean, maybe just the WESSA website is www.wessa.org.za. So, org.za. That's a really good entry point. Keep your eye on, you know, for particularly young South Africans coming through, keep your eye on things like...

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (56:55)
Yes.

Great. All right.

Mm.

Mike Denison (57:12)
website and opportunities, whether it's formal opportunities that we're putting on the website or internship programs. We're just coming to the end of hosting interns around the country on a two-year internship to bring them more strongly into the environmental sector. And those are periodically those kinds of internship programs happen. So keep your eyes on that. But I just, yeah, I mean, I think this is great.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (57:25)
Wow.

Mike Denison (57:41)
this conversation platform that you've kicked off here tonight, Garrett, I think it's an awesome way just to increasingly bring a very important discussion into everyday life because the more we know, the more we start to think about changing our behavior, the more we start to change our behavior. The more we change our behavior, the better things move.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (57:43)
Hmm.

Hmm.

No, yeah.

No, I completely agree. And, you know, I appreciate that. you know, I, I'm a historian by trade. went into studying history because I love stories. I love knowing things about that. And I wanted to go more into kind of academics, but I grew up in the conservation household and environmental household. And it kind of called me back. And I was wondering how I can use my skills to help. And I thought, well, one of the

you know, and I think I'm not trying to my own horn here. I'm thinking we should all you know, not all of us are built to be scientists or, you know, you know, pangolin trackers or whatever, whatever skills you happen to have, you can use those to help conservation help the world around you. I'm doing it by I'm I hope I'm good at podcasting and interviewing and that

And I would love to use this platform, as you say, to make the space more accessible to people, make it easier, get more outreach, get more voices and ears and things going. So, you know, the more people I can talk to, the more space I can have for everyone, the better. and, know, thank you so much for, being on here with me. It's really, I think this has been a brilliant start to whole thing. And sorry, Mike, if people want to get hold of you, do you have any direct contact details or should they just go through the WESSA website or?

Mike Denison (59:22)
Yeah,

my email address is probably the easiest way to get in touch with me. It's mike.denison and that's at wessa.org.za. Mike.denison@wessa.org.za. And I do my best to keep up to my emails.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (59:29)
Mm.

Fantastic.

And I'm going to put all of these.

You were pretty responsive with me, so I appreciate that. But I will put all of these links and email addresses into the show notes. So everything will be there for everyone. Also, if you want to contact us at the podcast, the email address is podcast at cango.co.za. That's podcast @ cango.co.za. Again, that'll all be in there. And of course, we have our website, www.conservationstation.co.za.

Mike Denison (59:54)
I'm

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (1:00:18)
So feel free to contact us on there as well. The podcast will be available on there and also wherever you happen to listen to podcasts. But Mike, this was absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much. I hope to have you on again in the future. think I'd love to delve into each of those projects a bit more individually, in particular Pangolins. And I think maybe in the future we can look at how some of these projects synergize.

with even Cango or other programs. Maybe we'll even get some other people on. We can have a bit of a round table. I think that would be fantastic.

Mike Denison (1:00:51)
So, Garrett, can I make one last comment? A lovely, very, very easy way to contribute to conservation is Outliers Coffee Roasters. They've got a slogan "roasting for a cause". They have a coffee called Armoured Aroma, which is a pangolin coffee. They do a number of coffees and they make a very healthy contribution from the sale of every bag of coffee.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (1:00:55)
Of course.

Mm.

Okay.

Ha ha.

Mike Denison (1:01:20)
to directly to the WESSA pangolin program. So you don't have to change your behavior, you don't spend anymore, but every time you take a sip of coffee, you're sipping for a cause. So.

Dr Garrett E Eriksen (1:01:32)
I love that.

love that. I'm not a coffee drinker. I'm more of a tea guy, but I'm sure everyone loves that idea as well. Mike, please send me those details. I will happily put those in the show notes. Anything to further conservation. Brilliant, Mike. Thank you so much. All right. See you again soon.

Mike Denison (1:01:42)
All right, great.

Yeah.

Good.

Thanks, guys. Cheers.